A Mark 9/Prague nexus?

Hello IWCers,

I have recently dipped my toe back into the "Mark 9" swamp. Great watches but
lots of sinkholes.

Looking through a number of archive extracts issued to factory-verified
watches, I see that more than a few were sold through "Novotny, Prag" --
chiefly in the early years of production (none after the war started).

I was wondering if other folks have encountered "Novotny." I assume it was
the name of IWC's agent in Czechoslavakia at the time -- like Zipper in
Poland. It was and is quite a common Czech surname, and there was at least one
prominent Prague jeweler operating in the '30s called Novotny & Cie (whose
name appears on a few pocket watch dials of the period).

Does anyoe know if all/most of the "Mark 9s" that came into Czechoslavakia in
those years came in through "Novotny"? If so, that would be potetially
interesting for lots of reasons. Did Czechoslavakie get a hefty proportion of
the Mark 9s sold? I only have a few data points and would love to get a
broader/more accurate picture of the situation.

More generally, I think it is notable that at least some number of "Mark 9s"
were coming into Prague in the late 1930s. Czechoslavakia, like Poland,
seemed to have a strong appetite for this type of watch at that time. Indeed,
the "Mark 9" is incredibly similar to the military Czech Longines -- right
down to the knurling on the rotating bezel. I will request extracts for my
Czech Longines watches to see if, by chance, they came in through "Novotny,"
as well. Could there have been a "milspec" or RFP in the background here? I
never quite believed the offical IWC line on the genesis of the "Mark 9" --
charming though it may be.

Any information will be much appreciated!

Best, M9 (who posted here for many years before settling into MWR for the past
decade or so!)

PS Did I really sign up 20 years ago! I remember the day, actually. I had
just bought a Mark 11 for a bargain price from the used case at Royal Jewelers
in Andover, MA and wanted to share my excitement. I think I paid $750.
Michael F was running the show then. He was always very helpful to me.

This makes perfect sense. In the 1930s, all of the world's largest airforces
were -- believe it or not -- in what is now Eastern Europe. The biggest of
them all were in Hungary, Poland and Czechoslavakia. This is why all of those
43mm cal 17.26 Longines, the "Czech" Longines, the big Minervas. etc went to
these countries. It would be no surprise if the near-identical Mark 9s
followed suit. Sadly, with respect to the Mark 9 specifically, there is also
the fact that most of the fakes come/came out of Eastern Europe and so the
"base" watches used to get the archive extracts for these deceptions came out
of the Eastern European market, as well. I would seriously question a
purported Mark 9 delivered to Odessa. However, a delivery to Poland or
Czechoslavakia might be a very good sign. This is part of the reason why the
recurring "Novotny" delivery address is intriguing. Virtually all of the many
17.26s that went into Poland went through one agent -- Zipper. I was, in part,
attempting to see whether Novotny is to the Mark 9 what Zipper is to the 17.26
Longines. All the best, M9

Dear Roger

those "Mk. 9", which went to CZ, went there via Novotny simply because Novotny
was the agent for CZ - and therefore not only "Mk. 9" went to Novotny, but
loads of normal civilian pocket and wrist watches.

Regarding military use I'm pretty sure, the "Mk. 9" was not for mil use. Air
Forces and other Armed Forces do not order here and there one or two watches,
but bunches of the same type of watches as part of the same order. At least
two digit numbers, regularly three of four digit numbers. We see no such
volume orders of "Mk. 9" going to the same dealer. And because orders of the
military comprised unusual quantities and acceptance tests were conducted,
IWC was always aware, when an order was an Armed Forces order. So at least by
oral tradition the IWC people would know the watches were for issue to Armed
Forces.

And we have to consider that everything what looked like pilots watches was
very fashionable at the time. So this type of watch was very popular in the
1930ies and were produced by many manufacturers in quantities. So it is alike
the Mk. 12, fashionable at the time, but no military provenance in its own.

Just my two cents!

Thomas Koenig

Agree 100% regarding Mk. 9. Did not mean to imply (and don't think I said)
that it was ordered for military use. On the other hand the very similar --
and earlier -- Longines very clearly was. What I meant was that the basic
design -- of which the Mark 9 was derivative -- may well have come from a
military specification. According to Longines, they received a batch order for
the so-called "Czech" Longines, which exists in civiliam form in very small
numbers. Having said all of that, the fact remains that Czechoslavakia,
Poland, Romania, Hungary, etc were the air powers of the time, and many
civilian watches likely saw use by military aviators. I also agree, of course,
that fashion ultimately played a role here -- just like the craze for dive
watches in the 60s. But the fact remains that with respect to the brands for
which there is documentation, a hugely disproportionate number of big pilot
watches went to these Eastern bloc countries.

Thank you for clarifying the Novotny situation. That is exactly the
information I was looking for (and anticipated)! Much appreciated!

Best, M9

PS One more question for Thomas: are you aware of any Mark 9s that were
delivered to the USA or Western Europe? I have looked at about 30 extracts
and have found none. I am sure there are some!

a) This design is known as "Pattern 1928" and attributed to the at that time
"unofficial" German Luftwaffe (Diameter 38 to 40 mm, black dial with arabic
numerals with radium lume, bidirectional bezel with a pointer). I'm not sure,
at least saw no document giving evidence or supporting an educated guess it
was really a specification of German Luftwaffe, which in 1928 should not have
been in existence according to the international treaties in force then. Maybe
your assumption is correct, it was a spec. of an Eastern Europe Air Force.

b) I don't know of any deliveries to the US. But I think there the Weems
design was predominant compared to the Pattern 1928.

c) I know about at least one "Mk. 9". which went to Egypt and 2 going to
Western Europe.

Regards

Thomas Koenig

Dear Thomas,

Thank you again for the info!

Yes, I am aware of the Egyptian delivery. Do you happen to recall which
Western European countries received those 2 watches? In any event, you have
answered my main question: despite supply networks for IWC in Western Europe
and North America in the late 1930S and early 1940s, virtually all Mark 9s
went to the Eastern bloc aviation powers of the period. One possible answer
is "fashion" as you say. I might -- or the facts might -- suggest a slightly
different answer. Given the importance of its aviation history to its brand
identity, you might think IWC would delve a little more deeply into these very
interesting subject matters. I recently gave a talk at the NY Horological
Society with Vacheron's wonderful and erudite Christian Selmoni that touched
on some of these issues. Our free exhibition opening next week at Oxford
University's History of Science Museum will explore them in
very great depth.

Again, thank you for your very kind and very generous help -- both here and at
MWR.

Hope to see you aometime soon.

Best, RM

PS And we will have a chat about the so-called "1928 Pattern" sometime.... You
are spot on! RM (:

Noseying around the Movado 12717 may be fruitful, though archive paperwork may
prove problematic. The old polish gentlemen of yesteryear loved (rated) this
watch.

That watch figures into the Mark 9 story in interesting ways as you may
already know. Some examples are very beautiful. I'm a huge Movado fan from
way back!

Yeah ^...the ss movado 9's are beautybar...for sure...is the casemaker known?

The Mark 9 is one of the iconic IWC watches but if one wants to spend 20.000
euro it should be a genuine one.

And here is the problem for the collector who wants to buy such rarity. How
can you be sure that it is real. Although the topic of this thread is
completely different, I want to report my experience with the IWC 'Herrenuhr
fur Flieger'. About 20 years ago, I bought one and I sent it to Schaffhausen
for authentification. It had the cal. 83 movement and its movement number and
case number belonged to the range and production year in which all the Mark 9
watches had been made. In total, IWC made about 66.000 calibre 83 wrist
watches.

Dial, bezel etc were executed as should be and I expected to receive an
extract of the archives, which I indeed received. However, the extract did not
say : 'Herrenuhr fur Flieger but just man's watch, calibre 83, case and
movement number were matching. It had been sold to East Europe. IWC told me
that it had not been sold as 'watch for pilots'. At the same time a German
collector , owing three Mark 9 and an American collector owing one, sent back
their Mark 9 watches for thorough investigation by Jurgen King, the IWC museum
curator at that time. Two of the 4 watches had an extract of the archives
stating : 'Herrenuhr fur Flieger'.Mr. King investigated all four watches and
concluded that all were fake. Three of them could be identified by their wrong
dial or bezel. One of them was so perfectly faked that King could demask it
only by analysing a tiny fragment of the steel from the case. The steel used
for the case came from a certain lot and had been registrated by IWC.I am not
sure if there is anybody at IWC now, who can idenfy a Mark 9 correctly.

Regards,

Adrian,

(alwaysiwc).

Hello adrian....did the 4th fake watch have an original dial?

Interesting data points for sure. Mr King's efforts over the years with
respect to verifying Mk 9s are well known. It is too bad that he is no longer
available to perform that valuable service. Obviously there were many abuses.
These anecdotes, which I have heard before, are especially
troubling for many reasons. As for the chemical analysis of the steel, I will
say that I have always thought that fhis particular story might be apocryphal.
Apart from the fact that there were two case types, seemingly produced over
many years, spectral analysis of steel is tricky and not inexpensive.
However, many fakes that I've seen have been made of very low grade steel that
can be distinguished from the steel of correct period watches by mere visual
examination. Mr King certainly could have made an expert judgment on this
basis. But, as they say, anything is possible and Mr King was a thorough and
meticulous researcher. All the best, RM

Fakes with rare original dials and rare matching designated numbers are
rare...even rarer pre turn of the century.

Catherine,

You are absolutely right.

But at the turn of the century an original Mark 9 was already priced at 15.000
euro.

I asked once the late Mr King about the movement numbers, allocated to the
Mark 9 watches. He replied that IWC had decided to not disclose such
information anymore, because of the increasing number of fakes already 30
years ago and the high quality of fakes including the application of
'patina'.I believe that , if all registrated 'original' Mark 9 were tested
again using the standards of Mr. King, the number of genuine watches would
decline considerably. As you can read in my article the case of the watch was
not made at IWC. Also the perlage is not original. But before the problem was
recognised, it was possible to ask IWC, without sending the watch about case
and movement numbers.

It is not a secret that after WW II old machines of IWC were sold to East
European countries and that until today the best copies of icon watches show
up in those regions.

Regards,

Adrian,

(alwaysiwc).

Thank you Adrian....i thought they were a stretch cheaper than 15 late
'90's..did you ask mr king how the movement numbering had been executed
...late '90's wasnt exactly extract central being splashed all over the net to
allow the skulldugerous to cherry-pick a new correct identity.