c.77 23jewels = ?

In this forum, time to time pocket watch collectors (including me) asked questions concerning the existence of the c.77 23j indcated in the list in the book of Toelke & King. Because I could not distribute the 23 jewels in the c77, and there is no indication for the 23j version in the various "catalogues of spare parts" , I allways had some doubts if 23 jewels version exists. I mentioned earlier, that it is probably only a special version of the 21j movement.

The only way to find the solution was to find one of the 600 movements marked in the Toelke list as "c.77 17"' H4 23p"

The picture shows one of those movements.

The "c.77 23p" simply does not exist, but it is a "PRECISION QUALITY" version of the c.77 21p.

Lets name it "c.77 21p PQ"

Does someone else knows a watch with a movement with a serial number in 749'201-749'500 or 754'601-754'900?

Especially the second 300 are interesting, becaus I think the first block are all marked "PRECISION QUALITY"

But the question remains. Where are the exact differences.....

Best regards

Ralph Ehrismann

I'll check (it may take a while)

a lot of people, me included, will be on vacation...

regards,
Michael

I don't have the right serial #...but

I just like posting my Cal 77...

Ralph, can we see the dial? >

Thanks!

Here's the answer from Schaffhausen....

Hi Ralph,

Here's what I was told:

The calibre 77 with 23 jewels exists.

In the old service-books there should be variations with 15, 17, 19 and21 jewels. The jewels are found at

The 15 jewels version
A. 5 jewels at the balance ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels, 1 jewel
as ruby pin at the double roller )
B. 4 jewels at the ancre ( 2 hole jewels, 2 pallet jewels )
C. 2 jewels for the escape wheel ( 2 hole jewels )
D. 2 jewels for the fourth wheel (second-hand-wheel) ( 2 hole jewels )
E. 2 jewels for the third wheel ( 2 hole jewels )

The 17 jewels version
A. 5 jewels at the balance ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels, 1 jewel
as ruby pin at the double roller )
B. 4 jewels at the ancre ( 2 hole jewels, 2 pallet jewels )
C. 2 jewels for the escape wheel ( 2 hole jewels )
D. 2 jewels for the fourth wheel (second-hand-wheel) ( 2 hole jewels )
E. 2 jewels for the third wheel ( 2 hole jewels )
F. 2 jewels for the centre wheel ( 2 hole jewels )

The 19 jewels version
A. 5 jewels at the balance ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels, 1 jewel
as ruby pin at the double roller )
B. 4 jewels at the ancre ( 2 hole jewels, 2 pallet jewels )
C. 4 jewels for the escape wheel ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels )
D. 2 jewels for the fourth wheel (second-hand-wheel) ( 2 hole jewels )
E. 2 jewels for the third wheel ( 2 hole jewels )
F. 2 jewels for the centre wheel ( 2 hole jewels )

The 21 jewels version
A. 5 jewels at the balance ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels, 1 jewel
as ruby pin at the double roller )
B. 4 jewels at the ancre ( 2 hole jewels, 2 pallet jewels )
C. 4 jewels for the escape wheel ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels )
D. 2 jewels for the fourth wheel (second-hand-wheel) ( 2 hole jewels )
E. 2 jewels for the third wheel ( 2 hole jewels )
F. 2 jewels for the centre wheel ( 2 hole jewels )
G. 2 jewels for the barrel ( 2 hole jewels )

The 23 jewels version
A. 5 jewels at the balance ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels, 1 jewel
as ruby pin at the double roller )
B. 6 jewels at the ancre ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels, 2 pallet
jewels )
C. 4 jewels for the escape wheel ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels )
D. 2 jewels for the fourth wheel (second-hand-wheel) ( 2 hole jewels )
E. 2 jewels for the third wheel ( 2 hole jewels )
F. 2 jewels for the centre wheel ( 2 hole jewels )
G. 2 jewels for the barrel ( 2 hole jewels )

The 23-jewel-version should look like the drawing (shown above).

The watchmaker who helped me also added:

I have discussed the "jewel-question" with Mr. King and our watchmakers in service. There also is something we could not understand : In our vintage spare-part catalogues we find that there must be a version with 15 jewels, but no watchmaker could remember that he had seen such a movement physically. It might be interesting if some of the collectors own such a movement.[i]

regards,
Michael

Sorry, I DISAGREE!

Dear Michael, Dear Mr. IWC-Museeum / King

Thank you for the answer! When there is a 23 jewel version, the jewels should be there where they are shown in your picture. I acknowledge the great experience of Mr. King and his crew but this time I can not yet agree....
I still say: The c77 23p was not built and sold 600 times as indicated in the list. If it reeally exists, there was much less; a small serie or even just some prototypes....

I personally have no old official document that indcates that the 23 jewel version exists. Even the sample shown in the drawing has no jewels for the barrel! I think the diameter of the stone hole would be bigger (compare barrel bridge of c.9828) .

I wonder from which document the above drawing comes.
The c.77 movement was built only a few years (1917-1920). In a bad copy of an old price list, I found the same drawing (same rotativ position of all screws etc.) indication just 21 jewels. It seems that the text in the drawing was later modified for "marketing" reasons to 23 jewels, but the image shows still just 21 jewels.

I'd like to see a photo of an existing 23 j movement out of the indicated serial numbers..... Who got one?

But I can give you here a picture of the "non existing" 15j version....
The movement needs to be revised I know.

Finally the great contest....
Who shows us a the first time a real 23 jewel c.77 movement ?

Best regards

Ralph

2nd Comment....

I rechecked the indicated jewel distribution, and detected some differences between the indicated distribution and my movements or the spare part list for the 21 j version:

The 21 j version has no jewels for the barrel!
But now where are the missing ones.....the ancre has 6! jewels.

In addition, the "spare parts list" indicates for the 21 jewel version a "roller 2 pieces". But what is the advantage of this 2 pieces roller, especially for the jewel count of 21 jewels ?

I wanted to know where there are jewels at the bottom of the c.77 21j really! As a non watch maker not so easy....

The picture shows the bottom of a c77 21j . Take a look at the orientation of the endstone plate of the ancre, compared to the picture from Schaffhausen. It can also seen, that there is also no jewel for the barrel at the bottom.

The c.77 is my favorite IWC-movement, so let the discussion going on......
Has someone a c.77 movement with
- jewels on the barrel,
- no bottom endstone on the ancre but 2 pieces roller
- an different arrangement of the endstone plate for the ancre
.....

Best regards

Ralph

It's a Cresarrow....

It is my personal opinion, that the c.77 was developped especially for th US-Market. Most of them (c.77) can be found in Cresarrow cases with a seller name on the dial. There are only a few c.77 in IWC-cases.
When you find a c.77 in an IWC-case then the serial number of the case (upper 900'000's) is normally much higher than the serial number of the movement (750'000's). This indicates, that the movements was "spares" or not sellable in Switzerland, and after some time (20 years) IWC used them in some higher class watches in Switzerland.

regards

Ralph

Though I'm not an expert and watchmaker

Hi Dr. watch77 and Mr.MF

But I have quite interest in so-called RR (Railroad) grade watches. So then, I would mention some speculation about double roller version Cal.77. RR watch regulation in 1893 set up their pocket watches to have double roller (roller table and guard pin). Thus without exception, whether RR or not, US made high-grade pocket watches have Double roller. I have never heard that IWC pocket watches were adopted in official RR watch (Black bold Arabic numbers on dial was must), but at least for the US market it's not difficult to presume that IWC choose double roller as to show "high-grade". I am convinced that smart top management of the time (and even now) in Schaffhausen -as you might know well they attempted to export to US after WWI- never overlooked such preference of US market. But It's a only my poor conjecture and cannot mention the differences in 21jeweled Cal.77 at all...

P.S Dr won the bid on IWC pocket watch in wooden box, didn't you? The box seems to be just used in railroad company!

Greetings,
Nikator from Japan

Great dial...I like it! It has a very >

fluid feel, like time it's self.

My C77 posted above is IWC cased...more

I will check this evening to see what the case number is - I cannot remember off-hand.

Mvt. 764'125 Case 853'159 Sold 1928>>

Is this rare...also has Chronometre on the dial.

Double Roller....

I think all IWC's of this century (and probably even all of them) have a double roller.
Normally the body of the double roller is produced in one piece. It is a piece with two small discs conneced with a short tube in the center .The bigger ports a saphir (or ruby) pin and the smaller one has, exactly at the position of the pin, a missing "section". The security needle passes this section when the ancre drive the balance. In case of a too big amplitude of the balance, the security pin prevents a second "drive" in the same direction. The correct position of the to discs is quite important, so to make two pieces out of the "double roller" makes life complicated for the watch maker. There is (from a my view) no need to have the possibility to adjust the positions of the disks individually, the only advantage could be to have different materials: Steel for the "driving" disc and ruby (=jewel 20 for lower friction) for the smaller with the missing section.....

Here we need the knowledge of a really good watchmaker from IWC, to explain the correct reason.

Regards

Ralph

A real hammer....

.... is natually the shown prototype of the c77 with 26 jewels:

A. 6 jewels at the balance ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels, 1 jewel as ruby pin at the double roller,1 as small roller jewel)
B. 6 jewels at the ancre ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels, 2 pallet jewels )
C. 4 jewels for the escape wheel ( 2 hole jewels, 2 endstone-jewels )
D. 3 jewels for the fourth wheel (second-hand-wheel) ( 2 hole jewels, 1 upper endstone jewel )
E. 2 jewels for the third wheel ( 2 hole jewels )
F. 2 jewels for the centre wheel ( 2 hole jewels )
G. 2 jewels for the barrel ( 2 hole jewels )
H. 1 jewel for the crown wheel (upper nosense stone)

Despite all this jewels, the movement has got just 1 adjustment:

The picture itself ;-)))

Ralph

P.S.: With this post, I just want to keep the discussion running.... I still wait for a reaction to my posts against the "official" statement from Schaffhausen.....

You are really "hero of c.77"

Hello Doc,
this is the finding of the year and beats all the rare Portugieser !
One question: The 1 (one) adjustment... was that the hit with the the Willi-Hammer ?!
A Great Weekend to all lovers of early IWC watches
Friedrich Wagener

Thank you for the information!

So I was not so close, but the difference is quite big for that time!

Ralph

A wonderful guess and conclusion

Hi,
Weather is fine in JAPAN. In addition to such a nice weekend....
I am so glad that your wonderful comment can be read about the question which I submitted. I read all these related documents carefully. I saw "Precision Type" for the first time. I understood your opinion. I respect you about your information gathering ability. It feels that I like IWC and this forum again today.

Best regards,

Daisuke Sawai

I appreciate for interesting info!

Hi Dr.Ralph

Interesting that IWC models had double roller.. I concur with Mr. earlyiwc's comment, and raise my hat off to Dr.Ralph, king of finger movement.

Regards,
Nikator from Japan