I recently placed an order via email with Schaffhausen for an Extract. A process I've used many times before amd was surprised to receive an email back that it was no longer possible to order Extracts.
Please see :
Not good news for Collectors.. :-)
Sorry to spread the sad news - I guess we will hear more as to why this changed, and the impact of the change.
MF, any inside info?
Mark,
if the price will be fair I think it's a good move.
I always thought it's poorly reliable to receive an extract without any inspection of the watch, not mentioning the bareness of information of some extracts sent to me by other maisons.
Once I even called to complain (this watch of mine, wasn't an IWC) the (probably, marketing guy) didn't even understand what I was talking about :)
What's important is the examination to be made severely and by expert people, in depth, so the extract will report the most possible information about the watch.
Wise move for IWC.
To simply know the match between case and movement would be useful to have someone in charge to reply to a mail, like Longines does for instance. That would be the first step for a collector to understand what's in his hands and, if it's the case, decide to proceed further, asking for an extract.
That combination would be the best effort a maison could provide to collectors - imo.
I have no insider info, Mark.
To me this is mixed news. Authenticity is worth confirming, but I can't send a bunch of pocket watches easily or inexpensively to Schaffhausen. Also, with respect there are few people left at the factory who can confirm all details in every instance. Most haven't been there that long or have encylopedic knowledge.
Learning something less is often helpful or interesting, such as if case-movement is a correct match or where the watch was first sold. I wish there were a second, less costly and burdensome alternative offered as well.
While at first glance this decision appears to be a good one, to protect us from forgeries, I wonder if it was thought through.
The following comes to mind:
What is the value of the Extract from the Ledger and Certificate of Genuineness issued to date, for which we paid a "nominal" fee?
What about the watches that have already been to Schaffhausen to get the Extract from the Ledger, or the Certificate of Genuineness, e.g, Ref 325, Ref 666, Ref 866, Ref 812, Mark 11, WWW, and others?
Will it be necessary to resend them to Schaffhausen, and pay this nominal fee again, to obtain this new Certificate?
This so called nominal fee multiplied by fifty is not that nominal anymore, especially if we already paid the previous "nominal" fee for an Extract.
Last, but not least, and as Michael already pointed out, I wonder if the experts currently in Schaffhausen will issue a document with any added value over the previous Extract of the Ledger or the Certificate of Genuineness.
I'm just saying.
Also, the policy seems to indirectly favor collectors in countries close to Schaffhausen, since shipping a watch there and back is less costly.
It also dramatically increases the cost compared to the old system, due to shipping and insurance charges. For the serious collector who buys many vintage watches, the costs could be huge.
Hi All,
I must have missed something as I thought this was how it always worked (from the comments obviously not though).
It seems to make sense to me, I cant imagine anyone issuing a certificate of authenticity for something that is unsighted.
The 2 watches that I have extracts for (666AD and MX XI) both had them issued whilst the watch was back for a service - I dont see it as too much fuss to wait until the next service to get an extract for a watch (unless you are looking at selling it sooner) and I dont really see any need to have a copy of the extracts that I already have and get a new version which basically tells me the same thing.
If you wait for the next service, you also dont have to worry about how your watch is going to get to and from Schaffhausen - simply drop the watches off at your local AD / Richemont / Boutique and they look after packaging it up and sending it over - all at no charge.
If all you are doing is sending your watch in for an extract then I can understand a nominal fee - hopefully, if you are sending your watch in for a service there will be some flexibility to the model that will allow for the extract to be "bundled in" with the existing order.
My 2 cents . . . :)
Cheers,
ben
Ben --the prior Extracts from the Archives were not Certificates of Genuiness and disclaimed authenticity. They were useful for other purposes, such as confirming the model number, the first buyer and dates of production.
Hi Michael,
The extract for my MK XI reads as follows:
"After inspecting this watch on our premises, we are able to confirm that it is the legendary Mark XI . . . . . . "
That reads to me as a confirmation of authenticity - what more could the new certificates do to confirm a watches authenticity?
Regards,
Ben
Ben --for Mark 11s, IWC does offer a certificate of authenticity, which you o have. The Extracts from the Archives differ.
What would be the use of an extract if it does not tell me that the watch is genuine? I can well understand IWC's policy here, as I am almost sure that there are simply too many and too good fakes in the market - including the correct numbers. The old way of doing it just is a risk to IWC!
Anyone being able to buy an IWC will also be in the position to afford to send a watch to the next AD who will take care of the matter.
Quote:"What would be the use of an extract if it does not tell me that the watch is genuine? I can well understand IWC's policy here, as I am almost sure that there are simply too many and too good fakes in the market - including the correct numbers. The old way of doing it just is a risk to IWC!
Anyone being able to buy an IWC will also be in the position to afford to send a watch to the next AD who will take care of the matter. "
Regulateur, not quite. An extract from the sales register, whilst it did not guarantee authentity of a particular watch - is and has tremendous "add-value" to me as a collector. It lists additional info for me about the history of the watch, such as original date and location of the watch etc.
A pocket watch from 1926 in 0.800 silver with a Cal.52 might not be worth a fortune, but for me it's nice to know I have 3 of those sold all in the same year in vienna, Amsterdam and Paris - no. ( by way of example)
A certificate of Genuine Article - is something else?
Shipping a delicate old watch, such as a rare Jones pocket watch, is always a breathtaking adventure. And sometimes they sell for 1000 USD, which means that a several hundred dollar shipping charge adds to cost, particularly when one might buy 10 in a year. It's very different than for a contemporary collector who might live near Schaffhausen.
It also might impede the market for vintage. Certainly authentication adds value, but failure to authenticate might retard value or discourage transactions.
If I recall, the other companies that issue extracts --primarily Patek, Omega and Longines-- do not require physical inspection and disclaim authenticity in their documentation. That hasn't harmed them nor the market for their vintage watches. And, most importantly, a lot of people perceive value in what they issue, since otherwise they wouldn't ask for them.
Besides the shipping costs, does anyone know how much IWC will charge for this new certificate?
The FAQ says about shipping: "It is not possible for a watch to be sent straight to Schaffhausen; it has to be delivered to an authorized retailer or to an IWC boutique."
It says nothing about the costs of the new certificates. Neither does it say costs will differ depending on the distance to SH.
I just read in a german watch Forum, that the costs for the certificate are 300 Euro.
Omygod, why didn't I think of that? Thanks for the insight.
If the €300 per certificate is confirmed, obtaining it may not be cost effective for the collector, unless for the Mark 11s, and the Ref 325s.
Let me ask you, en passant, how many IWCs do you have?
I would not know why this should matter - but for your pleasure: 9.
Thanks for humoring me.
I did a quick search on "regulateur" and you do not appear to be a vintage collector. Your 9 IWCs may be quite recent and probably have all papers and documents, rendering the Certificate unnecessary. But even if you were one of those OCD collectors who needs to have the Certificates, you would have to fork out €2,700. Not exactly cheap, but worth considering.
Now imagine that you have been collecting vintage IWCs for well over 10 years, and already paid a "nominal" fee for the Extract from the Ledger or, in case of the Mark 11, the Certificate of Genuineness, for all your IWCs, some of which actually went Schaffhausen so the Extract or the Certificate could be issued, e.g. Ref 325, Ref 666, Ref 866, Ref 812, Ref 9386, Mark 11.
And now, out fo the blue, and for no apparent reason (to quote Forrest Gump) if you want to have the new and improved Certificate, you will have to send all your 40something watches to Schaffhausen, and pay the new "nominal" fee, which if the €300 price per unit is to be believe, will end up in a grand total in the vicinity of €12,000.
The motto "if it aint broke don't fix it" should have applied. Was it broken?
This is why it matters.