IWC MK11 South African Airforce

I wonder if anyone could help with something. There is an IWC MK11 with SAAF
markings (ONLY SAAF number, no other issue numbers). The inside caseback has a
7 digit number (These i believe were civilian stock) and the dial has no
military markings. I believe the AF numbers to be approx mid to late 60's,
possibly early 70's. Does anyone know how this may have come about. Majority
of other SAF IWC Mk 11's have multiple issuance markings, so find this
unusual........Movement number looks like 1.8 mil and inside caseback 1.7mil.
On asking an AD for their assistance, apparently the feedback they got was
that it was sold in Vienna in 1983.......Any assistace would be hugely
appreciated. Regards

Hi Matthew

so nice that you have one of the few SAAF Mark 11 survivors. Many were
destroyed in the early 1990s by quartermasters at the end of their service
life (A tragic tale that I can recount to you if you don't know it)

I cannot see the movement number, but the case was produced in 1965 and
delivered up to 1967

(when you give us the movement number I will give the manufacture date)

SAAF appears to have procured 200 Mark 11s between 1961 to 1986 in 3 batches.

Clepsydra, Cellar or other Mark 11 experts will be able to tell you more

Thanks so much for your reply, appreciate the info you have given me. The
movement looks to be 1.8 mil serial. What was confusing me more than anything
was the "basic" AF number stampings vs many of the others i have seen with
"double" engravings (British and SA). I am also wondering if SAAF procured
these through "normal" channels or not, as a few of them seem to be civilian
versions (Based on inside caseback number and also lack of military markings
on the dial). I wrote a few articles on SAAF Lemania watches
origintime.co.za/the-south-african-air-force-lemania-5012/ and
origintime.co.za/south-african-air-force-lemania-1872/ and realise
that the SAAF had a few strange ways of doing things, including destroying
items that were no longer in service. I am thinking of writing another article
on these, specifically pertaining to their use in the South African Airforce,
so am hungry for any information on them that i may lay my hands on. Thanks
again for your feedback.

Hi Matthew

You already contacted my on MWR, but obviously my replay didn't reach you. At
least I got no feedback.

The numbering of the case is o.k. for what I can see. So the reply, the watch
was sold to vienna, might result from the fact, that later on another
movement was swapped in the case. Please provide the movement No. here or via
PM on MWR and I can tell you more and direct you to some additional
information.

Regards

Thomas Koenig

Hi Thomas, My apologies, but didnt see a response. I will take a look on the
forum. Thanks for the info. The movement number is 1.8 mil, which in my search
on the internet, reveals a manufacture date of mid to late 60's. I cant help
but think the guys at iwc are looking at something completely different as it
was only the opinion of someone that had asked, rather than an oficial report
from the heritage dept. Thanks again for your response.

"and realise that the SAAF had a few strange ways of doing things, including
destroying
items that were no longer in service. I am thinking of writing another
article
on these, specifically pertaining to their use in the South African
Airforce,
so am hungry for any information on them that i may lay my hands on. Thanks
again for your feedback."

So the story goes like this......

The Seiko "Speedmaster" 7a28 quartz Chronograph had become the standard issue
for pilots and the remaining Lemania 5012 and IWC Mark 11s were made available
for purchase by SAAF personnel from the stores at the 1960s book value of 35
South African Rand.

These were subsequently returned to the stores and exchanged for the modern
and more expensive Seiko 7a28!!!

When the quartermaster realised what was happening, the remaining units, as
well as the returned watches were destroyed and buried. Talk about buried
treasure :'(

As a point of reference - I recall that a Seiko Pogue cost around 200 South
African Rand in the 1980s

Dear Matthew,

I don't think IWC looked into something completely different when telling you
the movement was sold in 1983 to Vienna. It was quite normal, that movements
produced in the sixties were sold up to the late eighties, simply because the
Quartz movements made it hard to sell mechanical movements already in stock.
So many movements from the mid to late sixties were sold many years later.

As your info, the movement is from the 1,8??.??? range is quite imprecise and
covers nearly 100,000 movement numbers while only a two digit number has been
used for mil. watches, your watch is at least debatable, if not for the moment
deemed to be non-original and a civilian movement swapped in a mil. case. The
numbers of the movements to the SAAF are known.

Regards

Thomas Koenig

Hi Thomas, Thanks so much for your response. I will try and get the actual
movement number, as i see your point regarding the small delivery of these and
the potential number it incluves by giving you 1.8xxxx. I did however read a
very interesting article on the MK11 that was written by the British
Horological Society that seems to explain the caseback markings of the SAAF
watches. I will look for the link and post it on this thread. Thanks again for
your assistance.

Regards

Matthew Taylor

I'm one of the authors of both articles on the Mk. 11 in the HJ.

Th. Koenig

Fantastic, thanks, then all my questions were answered with that. Great
article, loads of research in that article. I have wrirtten a few articles on
Lemania SAAF articles myself, so i know the time and effort tthat go into
these. If you are interested in taking a look ill leave the link below. Thanks
again.

origintime.co.za/the-south-african-air-force-lemania-5012/

origintime.co.za/south-african-air-force-lemania-1872/