my mysterious IWC pocket watch

Dear forum readers!
Some week ago i bougth one pocket watch in gunmetal case. In my opinion this
is one caliber 65. But i have some questions about this.
Serial number visible near the balance is: 157826.
I searched this number with "Date Your IWC" program, there tell me: "The
movement is a LÈp. c. 52 - 19lig. H 7, Mod. 1894, and dating from the year
1897."
What? This is surely not a 52 caliber! There is presumably an error in the
database.
Then i searched the all 65 caliber from this database. According to the
database this caliber produced in year 1896 and 1898 also, but in 1897 not!
My next question is: how many ligne is this movement, 18 or 19? Movement
diameter measured on dial side is 42 mm, measured on other side 40 mm. I have
earlier one another caliber 65 movement, this was 45 mm on dial side. I think
the larger is the 19 ligne caliber, and this new minor is the 18 ligne
caliber. I'm right? Or not?
But "Date Your IWC" program show me, that the earliest 18 ligne caliber 65
produced from the year 1905, and this was H6. But this movement is H7?
On the other hand, if i searched the 69 caliber, it can be seen that produced
such in the year 1897, but serial number range is: 159901-160200. And this was
all H7 calibers. But under dial there is also some difference between the cal.
65 and cal. 69.
Under the dial my movement look of is like a caliber 65.
Another mystery: the movement not signed IWC, under dial also not.
But the balance bridge another side marked with the serial number last 3
digit. (my all early iwc movements marked so)
This watch i bought from United Kingdom, i know they were exported many
movement to Stauffer & Co. This movement marked with peerless or S&Co. But
this movement is not marked! There is no indication at all! Perhaps know
someone another english connection with IWC?
I welcome any opinions or new information on this theme.

Some pictures i uploaded from my IWC pocket watch, and early IWC catalogues
and screenshots also from the "Date your IWC" program to my google drive.

Here can you see this:
drive.google.com/drive/folders/12AhvpSuZUCIaInMhcBI2Ql3NetBVQChw?usp=sharing

My english is not so good, sorry!

Best regards! Peter from Hungary

Hello Peter,

This is really a puzzle. I looked in the ledger of the Toelke and King book
and there the same is said : cal.52 Lepine.

I looked in the book by Reinhard Meis and compared your movement with IWC cal.
65/66 and 69.

It looks identical as in the IWC books. However, it is strange that you do not
find any mark nor ram or bock from IWC or from Stauffer ( they were not
identical images). And neither you found the word : 'peerless' The gun metal
case suggests indeed that it is an English watch. Could this movement be from
another brand?

Regards,

Adrian,

(alwaysiwc).

Hi Adrian!

If I know good, my source (DYIWC program) also based on the Toelke-King book.
That the movement is not marked by IWC is not a unique case, I had earlier
several such movements. And I also found an example earlier that the Toelke-
King database probably contains errors. I can set an example of both.

I uploaded my google drive one another directory, you can see 3 different
movements (cal 20, cal 58, cal 61).

drive.google.com/drive/folders/138AYh324kETT6oObBYsE3neCOu_HvBPC?usp=sharing

All 3 movements marked just with serial number! Under the dial also there is
nothing marking!
You can see two other pictures (screenshots from DYIWC). I asked two serial
numbers, both are caliber 20, and serials numbers are: 42621 and 42768. (First
was earlier mine, the other originate from Antonios Vassiliadis website.)
DYIWC shows me, that these movements are caliber 52 or 53!
And I uploaded new pictures from my pocket watch (case back and dust cover
inside).
The only marking on this movement is a letter M. What could this mean?
In the DYIWC program Variations field can see different markings, for example:
Mod 1893, Mod 1894, Mod 1904, a ponts, a vue, tr, I. Qual, S. C. Someone
knows, what could these means? Maybe on my movement M means e.g. Mod 1894?

Best regards! Peter

Hello Peter,

There are certainly problems with the ledger published in Toelke and King. The
most important one is that many different calibres were grouped together as
Elgin I and Elgin III. The latest classification by IWC dates from 1923 but
Tolke and King wrote their book decades later. The numbering of the movements
changed over time repeatedly. IWC states that their archives are not reliable
before 1885. That means that watches produced between 1872-1885 have no
reliable documentation, other than from the sales records.

What 'M' might be I do not know. I do' nt think Mod ( model) as IWC
abbreviated model as 'MOD..'

'Ponts a vue' means ' visible bridges' ( not covered by a plate)

'S C' is 'Seconde Centrale'

Regards,

Adrian,

(alwaysiwc).

A very intresting discussion, am beginning to think this is not an IWC
movement.

Hi Tonny!

Please see Michael Friedbergs website:

www.iwcpocketwatch.com/watches/finger-bridge/

Next to the first picture he wrote this: "a classic example of a Calibre 65
from the 1890s". If i see good this movement serial number is: 158008, this is
very close to mine. But DYIWC identified this also, that caliber 52. I think
the database here is definitely wrong!

Regards! Peter

Dear all

years ago I looked up a Cal. 65 from this movement No. range.

Serials 157,801 through 158,100 according to the movement control book are
Lepines Cal. 65 Luetetia.

"M" is a french import mark. So the respective watch presumably was sold to
Erbeau, at that time the general importer of IWC for France.

Regards

Th. Koenig

Dear Mr. Koenig!

Thank you, that confirmed my suspicion! I'm very happy now;-)) And I think
well also, it's a rarer 18 ligne caliber?

Thank you very much everyone for the posts!
I got a lot of new information, like the numbering of the early iwc pocket
watches or the explanation of the markings.

Best regards! Peter