"Obscure, Rare, and Uncommon"

For most of us, surfing the web brings us education and connects us to our watch passion. Mostly we learn, buy, sell, covet, and connect with like minded people. This forum is one of my 'go to' places to get this 'fix'. I thought it might be interesting to start a thread about how watches are described with the words 'obscure', 'rare', and 'uncommon', among many others.
It seems to me these words are used loosely and perhaps too often- many times they are used to boost the value of a watch when it is for sale.

I like the term 'obscure', here meaning 'forgotten' or 'not known my many', and there are so many examples with our favorite marque, IWC. What are the reasons for the obscurity?

To start the discussion, here are three examples I consider obscure, and my personal view as to why they might be considered so.

First, the Fuchs Scarabus pocket watch.
IWC entered into an arrangement with the Austrian artist Prof. Ernst Fuchs to design a pocket watch (and also a room clock, but that is another story). His design, the ref. 5420, has a scarab on one side, the sun on the opposite side of the case, with the close up face of the sun making the dial- and no crystal. There were to be made 5000 in silver, and 1000 in gold. But the likely poor sales made the actual production much lower: about 150 in silver, and 20 in gold according to some sources.

Next, we have an example of a 'Military dial' Ingenieur 866. Why these dials were made, but in very small numbers, is up for discussion. Many believe the BUND were offered up these as a proposed sale to the military, but they were not accepted- thus, the dials went to a small number of Ingenieurs offered to the public.

Lastly, I offer here another obscure IWC watch, this time it seems because of scandal. The ref: IW371537 GST chrono tachymeter "Jan Ullrich". Jan Ullrich was a cyclist from Germany who like so many other professional cyclists of that era was caught up in 'performance enhancing drugs'. This watch, targeted primarily at the German market, was to be limited to 500 pieces. But the result, after his 'outing' as a druggie, was the limitation was not met, and it is speculated that many fewer pieces were actually made than the 500.

There are other examples that come to my mind: the Boris Becker Portugier, the Mark XII in platinum for Asia, and the Sincere Big Pilot and Portofino moon phase in red gold.

What other examples would you offer?

Nelson

What about the Collector's Forum Da Vinci? My guess is not more than 20 were produced, but the amount was never disclosed, out of shame maybe?

Kind regards,
Paul

A good thread, Nelson.

Obscure watches are out there but no one sees them. They often fetch low prices but collectors kick themselves when they have missed the opportunity to pick one up. A 325 or Mark 11 might have fallen into this category 20 years ago. I think the modern pocket watches fit in this category today.

Rare could be a watch that exists in folklore but very few have seen them. Those who believe they should have one but have never seen one would regard the watch as very rare. A military 866 would fall into this category. I have seen the 866 military on two occasions and believe it to be the most desirable of vintage IWCs.

Uncommon would be a watch that was freely available but no one bought it. As Paul said, the Collectors' CFDV would fall into this category.

Thank You Nelson. Sry interesting.
Something can be learned from this Forum every day.

And maybe thats why IWC now uses ; one of 500 , instead of a numbered edition ? Just a guess.
I think the Ingenieur 3228, 40mm and saphire case back was also a very short production run, less than 600 i have read. And it was a good looking watch with cal 80110, but not antimagnetic.

This is an interesting theme because the explanation of the word 'obscure' may be interpreted differently. Where I live the word 'obscure' has a meaning which is somewhat negative. An 'obscure' watch is a timepiece which cannot be fully trusted in terms of origin or execution. Rave gives his view on the meaning of 'obscure' which is slightly different from Nelsons opinion.
Wikipedia says 'obscure' can mean dark, faint, indistinct, hidden, mysterious, not well known, uncommon.
The IWC watch that almost perfectly fits all these descriptions is for me the cal. 100 jubilee watch, designed exactly 50 years ago ( 1967) for the 100 years jubilee of IWC in 1968. This flat automatic watch which had a modified Pellaton winding system was never issued . Nearly all documents about it were destroyed, as the time to produce was too short to guarantee the 'Probus Scafusa' quality required by the company. I gues that less than 10 collectors have seen it and there are to my knowledge only two collectors ( not me) who own this 'obscure' watch.
Kind regards,
Adrian,
alwaysiwc).

Great thread to push start the old memory bank. For me two watches come to mind. And they are as different as night and day.

First there is Goldy. I know very little about this watch outside that it contained the illustrious 8541B, was called a Ref 1826 and was made from 18kt gold, including the bracelet and clasp. The combination of bark finish, stylized dial and diamond bezel makes it quite unique in the IWC 70s lineup. Could have been made for a Sultan or a celebrity.

The second obscure is a Portugueser Perpetual, which I believe was the first Port Perp and made in 25 pieces for New York retailer Cellini back in the early 2000s.

Nelson, maybe you can contribute a photo of that watch. And how about my favorite, the Vasco de Gamma Portuguese? Anyone have a picture of that one?

There are so many unique IWCs that these days maybe considered obscure. How about the Boris Becker green Portugueser?

Thanks Nelson, this is a fun thread.

Hi Nelson

It seems to me that everyone selling an old watch describes it as rare.
Not sure it gains them any additional value since most buyers accept the puffery along with the details, but it's certainly a common practice. As for the other adjectives, they'll remain a point in context.

I think of the watches I might own that could be considered as such and there are few, despite reasonable arguments to the contrary. I do have one watch that I consider quite rare but only because it still lives in its original box on its original strap with its original papers. Based on its provenance I'm fairly certain it has never been on a human wrist - certainly not mine - but one can never know these things for sure. As I have never seen another set up like this, I consider this a rarity, but the watch itself, a beautiful Cal 88, is perhaps unique in its dial but certainly not rare as a model.

Maybe someday I'll cock the whole thing up and wear it and then rare no more will it be.

Terry

Excellent idea, although I can't think of anything "clever" to contribute.
What about "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"?

Hi Nelson,
my small contribute to the uncommon piece.
Calendrochrono, a Boris Becker chrono and a very unusual 666 with even hours

Great post and discussion gentlemen. As a non-native English speaker I'm not going to add a lot to the 'definitions' part, but I like the original description and Rave's additions.

Seeing the amazing gold piece Larry added, my brain shouted 'ugly'!!!! It came to mind that 'taste'/preference is also part of this, particularly if we categorise items as 'obscure'.... I mostly find watches obscure when I notice a real break in design trend, or when new models/lines are introduced that fit nowhere in between...

'Rare' is a relative term, heavily inflated, and way too often used... but let me try to add a few rare watches below. Photos courtesy by T. Wagen, R. Kammer, Steiner, M. Friedberg and various other forum members here.

Regards,

Bob

All of these watches are a treat to see...great thread, Nelson. To affirm Ralph's definition of "uncommon," I offer the following as noted by Paul:
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Great topic!
Fun to READ too..

Thx & cheers

Great initiative Nelson,

One of the most engaging threads lately!

I don't have much to add I'm afraid, but I will definitely continue to follow the coming contributions with great interest and true enthusiasm.

Appreciated
/Anders

Wow, sold almost exactly 70 years ago, just a little short of a month away.

Very cool. Thanks for sharing.

Those OMAN special editions would fit as well.