Pallweber nr. 554

+1

Dear David,
I did not know of the movement n. 979. It's also possible that it was part of one of the batches of the 2nd numbering system and precisely of a new batch of Elgin II, Pallweber (the first of Pallweber II).
From the data that you have can you confirm the reconstruction of the batches that I tried to do?

nn. 1-300, Elgin I (movements known to me: n. 22 caliber 32, n. 33 caliber 33, n. 86 caliber 32, n. 148 caliber 32, n. 230 caliber 34, n. 256 caliber 34).

nn. 301-600, Elgin II, Pallweber I (movements known to me: n. 331, n. 350 and now n. 554).

nn. 601-900, Elgin I (movements known to me: n. 614 caliber 32, n. 616 caliber 34, n. 824 caliber 32).

Do you know other watch/movements that would call into question the reconstruction of these early batches?

Many thanks and Best wishes from Bologna

Giovanni Luchetti

Dear Giovanni,

Bearing in mind the movements you know, it seems to make sense that the first batch of number 1 – 300 was a Elgin I one.
Concerning the other batches we should know more movements. In 1884 batches of 300 movements of one calibre were manufactured. But also batches of 100 or 200 watches existed. So between number 301 and 600 Pallweber I, you mentioned the 331, 350 and of course the 554. As there is yet no evidence for a Pallweber I with a number 4xx we have to be careful. It might has been a batch of 300 Pallweber I; but on the other hand we do not know if there were 3 different batches 301 - 400 (Pallweber I); 401 - 500 (?); 501 - 600 (Pallweber I). So the more movements we will detect we probably can verify your hypothesis.
As a conclusion: we have to keep the Pallweber thread going on and look for still existing watches and movements. I´m really looking forward to it.

Cordiali saluti e buona Pasqua!

David Seyffer
Museum Curator

Dear David,

Many thanks for your posts!
I share the caution for the batch 401-500. I am also think it is necessary to look for still existing watches and movements to reconstruct all the batches of second numbering to the number 6500.
It would be helpful if in the forum there was an archive of all existing watches and movements of which there is no trace in the archives iwc (also of the first numbering).

Grazie degli auguri che ricambio, buona Pasqua!

Giovanni Luchetti

Hi

to my knowledge nobody has ever seen a Pallweber I.
When the Toelke/King book was written the authors tried feverishly to find a Pallweber I. In vain.

regards
Rolf

Reinhard Meis shows in his book a picture of the Pallweber I movement. If he is right, the shown movement Nr. 554 is not a Pallweber I movement. The difference between Pallweber type II and III can best seen with an under dial view of the 3 indicator discs (Toelke u. King p.116). But neverseless I think Rolf Birkenkemper is right!
H.G.

Dear Rolf, another Pallweber I is well known because it is preserved in the museum IWC (n. 350). Also a photo of the movement n. 331 is present in the book of Reinhard Meis (p. 49, photo n. 26).
Regards
Giovanni

Very interesting thread! Like an adventure that opens up before you.
Thanks Giovanni

Regards
Mike

Dear Hans-Georg,
Obviously the problem is not the differences between Pallweber II and Pallweber III.
Why do you think that the movement no. 554 is different from the one photographed in the book of Reinhard Meis?
If you look at p. 48 photo n. 24 you will see that the movement of n. 554 corresponds to that of the Pallweber I.
I may add that in n. 554 under the dial the supports of the wheels of the numbers are straight as are those of the photo on p. 49 n. 25, that is typical of Pallweber I.

For other comparisons see www.faszination-uhrwerk.de/w/w19/a19/ankerwerke-19.html.
Even in this case the movement of n. 554 corresponds to that of the Pallweber I and not to Pallweber II.
Regards
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni

it is relatively easy to spot the difference between a Pallweber I , a Pallweber II and a Pallweber III .
By looking at the numbering sequence on the rotating disks you will see :
On the Pallweber II the numbering on the hour disk and on the minute disk run clockwise ( i.e. 1, 2, 3 etc.). On the 10minute disk it is anti-clockwise
(i.e. 6, 5, 4 etc. )
On the Pallweber I it is the other way round ( 6, 5, 4, etc. on the hour and on the minute disk ; 1, 2, 3 etc. on the 10minute disk)
Pallweber III is like Pallweber II .

Is your very nice watch a Pallweber II or really a sensational Pallweber I ?

Regards
Rolf

Hi Giovanni,
I was convinced that your wonderful Pallweber watch is not a type I, because in the book of Meis (p.48) he wrote that the type I has a thin plate-spring holding the "Kleinbodenrad" (the wheel under the spring case-bridge, with the toothe-gaps)and that should be typical.
Regards!
Hans

Dear Rolf and dear Hans-Georg,
as David Seyffer said we know that IWC in 1884 was trying to improve the Pallweber mechanism. There was a continuous improvement process going on in 1884/85. Now the question is what we mean by Pallweber I and Pallweber II.

The movement illustrated by Reinhard Meis is the n. 331 and has the characteristics specified by you. However it is likely that the movement has been the subject of continuous development and that there are movements that have mixed characteristics typical of this developmental stage.

A picture can clarify the problem:

The movement lower down in the picture is certainly a Pallweber II, but the upper one is always a Pallweber II? The movement n. 554 is entirely similar to the top one in which, however, the numbering on the hour disk and on the minute disk run clockwise and the 10minute disk is anti-clockwise.

Also n. 554 has not the thin plate-spring holding the "Kleinbodenrad", but has yet the corresponding hole which is instead absent in Pallweber II.
See www.faszination-uhrwerk.de/w/w19/a19/ankerwerke-19.html. for another Pallweber I without the thin plate-spring holding the "Kleinbodenrad".

The movement n. 554 is certainly an evolution with respect to n. 331, but is very different from Pallweber II. It would be interesting to see the photos of the n. 350 and n. 979 (the first movement Pallweber II certainly known).
The question is to understand where it ends Pallweber I and where it begins Pallweber II.
David Seyffer can help us answer the question?

Dear Giovanni, Rolf and Hans-Georg,

Thank you for keeping up the discussion.

The both movements you can see on the pictures that posted Giovanni are from the IWC collection.Below you see the movement Pallweber II, H7 19''', Nr. 979; above Pallweber I, H7 19''', Nr. 350.

To examine if Nr. 554 is a Pallweber I or II it would be very good to have a under dial view.

Best wishes from Schaffhausen and have a nice evening,

David Seyffer
Museum Curator

Dear All

The "554" was also on my "to buy" list, but due a business travel it came out of scope, and it seems that it has immediately disappeared from ebay... :-(

The are many interesting comments on this movement in this thread.

I think it is possible to see the difference between the Pallweber I and Pallweber II also from the back:

For me:
The Pallweber I needs the small spring to push to the front the intermediate wheel which has a "star" with fingers to move the number wheels.
This star is not visible from the back.

The Pallweber II has a 2nd smaller gear wheel, which is visible from the back on the intermediate wheel and has no spring on it.

When I look at the pictures it seems to be a Pallweber II, no spring, but I also can't see the gear wheel.

I think the theories for the movement number batches are realy just theories.
For prototypes I think they mady any number of movements (50, 100 ,150, 300 ...)

Anyway:
Have fun with your very nice an early Pallweber watch.

Regards

Ralph

This continues to be a fascinating thread supported by extraordinarily knowledgeable IWC experts. Thanks to each of you for adding to our collective knowledge.

By the way.

Concerning the watch quality of the Pallwebers:
Normally the movements where from the point of view of "quality" quite poor:

• flat balance spring
• simple fixing of the balance spring at the balance bridge
• no jewel on the minute wheel
• guilded brass plate.

Has someone ever seen somthing better concerning this points?
When you have something "better" please document with picture.

Regards

Ralph

Thanks David and Ralph for your opinions.

The watch is now at my expert repairman because he has the straight support of ten minutes disk damaged and doesn't works well.
For this now I am not able to provide an under dial view. I hope I can show you a picture in the coming days.

I did not know that the two movements in the figure were from the IWC collection.
Now two questions for David:
1) The movement n. 350 is cased or not?
2) Is it possible to have a view of the other side (the back side) of the two movements n. 350 e n. 979?

Regards

Giovanni

Dear David
By which criteria do you judge the upper watch on the picture (number 350)
to be a Pallweber I ?
For me it is just an "ordinary" Pallweber II .
Regards
Rolf