Seeland calibres

I have a Seeland calibre movement n. 28660, cal. 24 with a case with London hallmarks for the year 1880.
Can someone explain me the chronological sequence of Seeland calibres? What calibres are Boston Broadway, Boston and Boston 20 lin. listed by Toelke-King in the list of movement numbers?

A favorite historical subject of mine...

...which I still don't fully understand. There's some very interesting information on this Calibre if you search the archived posts.

The late Frtiz Wagener was probably the world expert on Seelands. In 2006, he wrote me the following:

"Regarding the caliber "Seeland" I think that you mixed up the two groups of the so called Caliber Seeland. According to expert's comprehension, (incl. Jürgen King) during the era F. Seeland there have been developed/built only the caliber "Boston" namely the c.24 –c.26. The caliber c.18 – c.23 are ascribed to the following period of Tschopp/Pfister.

"R. Meis mentions "Diese neuen Werke entsprachen ganz dem amerikanischen Geschmack." However, up now nobody of us has ever seen any c.18 – c.23 which isn't sitting in a case stamped with British hallmarks. So please don't trust too much in that what Reinhard Meis surely made up out of thin air about 25 years ago

"Your new watch is the hermaphrodite c.26."

My watch is a so-called "Boston" accourding to the Toelke-King listing, and is shown above at right, next to my more ordrdinary "Seeland".

Regards,
Michael

A favorite historical subject of mine...

Many thanks Michael.
However, I have a doubt. For the sequence of numbers we must think that what is referred to as cal. 19 in the book of Toelke and King is really cal. 25. Only in this way we can say that Bostons are actually prior to cal. 18-23.
I have another doubt. What cal. are those reported as Bostons in the movement list in Toelke and King's book. Probably "Boston Broadway" is cal. 46. My thinking is wrong?

I think you could be right, but...

...there is not enough information in Toelke-King to really tell. The movement numbers on the models shown on pages 78-80 are higher than the "Boston" identified movements in the serial number lists of the book. Also, in the back the lowest serial numbers (6801-7300) were identified as "Boston Broadway" which --just guessing-- might mean that cal. 46 would be too high a designation. Also, "Broadway" seems to imply New York marketing, which might follow the Jones calibres, while most of the "regular" Seelands were sold in the UK.

But I'm an expert here.

Boston and Seeland

Are they known any Bostons with the new numbers started in 1884-1885?
It would also be interesting to know when were made the silver cases of "regular" Seeland.
The case of mine has London hallmarks for 1880.

I just checked my Boston...

The movement has a serial number (36211) which must be in the first numbering, since otherwise Toelke-King's list would identify it as as late 1880s Cal. 52.

The case, which I have every reason to believe is original to the movement, has no serial number, no import stamp, and no hallmark. It does have a stamp on the inside center saying "exposition and with a small engraving of a castle. Below that is the word "Swiss" which I find interesting since it is in English. Given all this, I would think the watch was not imported to England, like almost all (or all) "regular" Seelands, but more likely the U.S.

The case also has numbers which somebody scratched on the inside case lid edge...13806. I am guessing those are repairers' numbers and not part of the initial production.

The mystery continues.

Regards,
Michael
P.S. I think this has to be the rarest watch in my collection.

A favorite historical subject of mine...

Dear lovers of old IWC movements

The classification of teh Seeland movements is not clear.
I personally think the numbering of the calibers is wrong.
The c.24, c.25, c.26 with the balance on the top (Boston types) are the original Seeland types. The caliber with numbers c.18 to c.23 where developped and produced later. (Tschopp/Pfister)
At the end of "Seelands Aera" some base plates of a movement where in stock (inventory after the 2nd fail of IWC) which could be of a "new" type. Serial number of movements "40xxx" (when I have it correct in mind).
Pictures to follow. Have some problems here with mixed up thread.

regard

Ralph

The c.18 to c.26 (no c.20/21)

Some years ago earlyiwc made a collection of pictures of the various Seeland movments.
Later it was more clear, c.18 to 23 are no seeland's

regards

Various "Seeland" -movements

thanks very much, Ralph --good to see you here! NT

Boston and Seeland

Thanks very much, Michael and Ralph.
The numbers of calibres 24-26 (Boston but really Seeland) range from 28,000 to about 38,800. The numbers of calibres 18-23 (Seeland, but perhaps later) should be higher than 40,000 and go up to about 60,000 but perhaps are not continuous.
I think it's realistic to think that they are produced about 11,000 calibres 24-26 and then around 5000-6000 18-23 calibres. Is this assumption wrong?

Boston and Seeland

The real production number are not very clear for this period.
I think the production numers are higher than you indicate. (At least factor 2)

For the numbers < 40000 there are gaps. Yes
But I think : NOT SEELAND.

Today I think the production numers are mostly used just as commercial argument. For the collecor its important to find or at least to see but finally to love such a watch.

Best regards

Ralph

Boston and Seeland

Many thanks Ralph,
I agree with you, the production numers are very important for collectors to verify the rarity and the possibility of finding.
I have some other questions.
Are they known any Bostons with the new numbers started in 1884-1885?
What calibres are Boston and Boston 20 lin. listed by Toelke-King in the list of movement numbers?
Best regards
Giovanni

Boston and Seeland

There are some Bostons in the new numbering system.
(Search for Cal.46/ Boston). There are some movements with strange numbers. Its not clear if they are raly IWC or if IWC sold them as Raw movements.