• Connoisseur
    20 Feb 2010, 2:40 p.m.

    I'm not sure if I've shown these before. Three or four years ago I was in Schaffhausen and received this pages --someone was cleaning house and they were about to be thrown out. A friendly watchmaker saved them, and gave me copies. They are tantalizing since they do provide some clues about IWC's cloisonne watch dials --but not many.

    As I mentioned, cloisonne is a form of enamelware in which colored areas are separated by thin metal strips. I found this interesting definition on the Web:

    "Cloisonne: French for “cloison” or “cell.” A technique in which metal wires are bent to form a design, enamel is then inlaid into the resulting “cloisons.” Although this can be done in copper, contemporary cloisonné is most frequently done in silver or gold. The Byzantine Empire, 6th century AD, was the setting for gold cloisonne pieces of a religious nature. In the same time frame, the Japanese were producing scenes of nature. In China, cloisonné has been used since the 13th century AD."

    I had thought it was slightly different than Champleve, for which I found this definition:

    "Champleve: French for “raised field” or “raised plain.” A technique in which enamel is inlaid into depressions in the metal, leaving metal exposed. The depressions are typically made by an etching process, although other methods exist. First done in the 3rd century AD by the Celts decorating their shields, this technique has been one of the favorite forms of enameling. "

    In addition to some dial numbers ("cadre" is French for dial), note that several of the pieces are described as "c/email (fd. champ)". I 'm not sure what the "fd" represents, but I'll bet the rest means that these are "dial enamel (:émail" is French for enamel) --champleve". That is, I would think that they are technically champleve and not cloissomne.

    Regards,
    Michael

    www.iwcforum.com/Vintage/Email-dial.jpg
    an undated photograph from IWC's old inventory records

    www.iwcforum.com/Vintage/Email-dial2.jpg
    another undated photograph

  • Master
    21 Feb 2010, 9:35 a.m.

    Very interesting, thank you

    The story about rescuing these documents reminds me of stories where now famous music was rescued a few centuries ago. I am glad IWC has a person now that takes care of the museum, and hopefully also takes care of these kind of documents.

    At first sight you might say that cloisonné is history, but I wonder: watches with an inner dial might be quite suitable for this technique. Try to imagine a tasteful cloisonné dial on the new Portuguese Grande Complication, that really would be special, and in a way fitting too.

    Kind regards,
    Paul, wearing rose gold VC Portuguese, also fit for some cloisonné?

  • Master
    21 Feb 2010, 4 a.m.

    Thank you for the information Michael

    very much appreciated.

    Argiris

  • Connoisseur
    21 Feb 2010, 1:40 a.m.

    Speaking of cloissonne - More

    Hi Michael!

    It is an interesting post. Maybe I could add a little more into the comprehensiveness of those "fd. champ."

    I think you're right while speaking of "champleve". I'm pretty sure that "fd." is for "fond" or bottom in english.
    "cadr." and "c" mean "cadran" or dial in english. So "c/email (fd.champ.)" means enamel dial (raised bottom).

    Regards,
    Jean

  • Connoisseur
    21 Feb 2010, 7:20 a.m.

    Thanks for your help with French...

    Now that I think about it, it is of course "cadran" and not "cadre". Appreciated, Jean.

  • Master
    21 Feb 2010, 7:45 a.m.

    Interesting information!...

    I think these are beautiful watch dials pictured in the pages you provided. I wonder what the market would be, if they were offered today on some of the larger contemporary pieces?

    Best regards,
    Jim

  • Master
    20 Feb 2010, 1:35 p.m.

    Those 2 pages appear to clarify...

    the closonne/champleve issue. It is in fact logical to conclude that champ. stands for champleve. Cellar has suggested as much in one of his posts.
    They also imply that there were at least 11 dial designs in champleve, at that particular time, with page 28 displaing dials #9, #10 and #11.
    Page 23 does not attribute any designation to the champleve dials and includes a steel watch with a guilloche dial.
    I wonder which was the criteria used to catalogue the watches and the dials, and where the other pages are.
    The seach continues, as Cellar would say.
    Thanks Michael.

  • Master
    20 Feb 2010, 3:50 p.m.

    Seven different champleve dials in IWC watches...

    The images are from Cellar's web site and from the forum.
    Now all in one place for easy reference and for our enjoyment.
    Clepsydra

    i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii236/costadaguia/IWCChamplevedials1a.jpg
    The hipocampus motif also has a round version

    i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii236/costadaguia/IWCchamplevedials2a.jpg
    There is a PP with an identical dial to the right bottom corner

  • Master
    22 Feb 2010, 8:25 a.m.

    I don't remember seeing these before MF >

    however, wonderful information and photos.
    --
    Thanks from Isobars.

  • Master
    21 Feb 2010, 6:35 p.m.

    Thanks for posting the images

    There seems to be eleven different dials and as Clepsydra points out four are yet to surface.

    Cheers from the cellar

  • Master
    22 Feb 2010, 3:55 a.m.

    Speaking of cloissonne, a little more information

    Some of these dials are really impressive.
    I remember seeing pictures of floor standing clocks with similar looking dials, but never wrist watches. I imagine this technique must be very difficult on such small scale.
    This was great info - thanks cellar, clepsydra, MF for digging this out.

    Cheers,
    Evan

  • Master
    21 Feb 2010, 8:25 p.m.

    Here are two more IWC models with cloissonne dials

    I think these two, which I pulled from my files, are different than the ones shown thus far in this thread.

    The bottom one is of the same type watch which came in to my company's service center in 1991 for complete service and dial restoration. Our records indicate that the “special dial” was restored at the factory - with a waiting period of over one year.

    Regards,
    Jack Freedman

    superiorwatch.com/scans/R587.jpg

    superiorwatch.com/scans/IWCfloral.jpg

  • Master
    22 Feb 2010, 12:15 a.m.

    my humble apology to Greg a.k.a. cellar .....

    Sorry, I just spotted an earlier thread lower down about this subject. You posted a link to your page which includes the photos I put up as well. I wasn't aware of it when I posted my message in this thread.

    I appreciate the vast amount of work you put in to educate and inform IWC fans.

    Regards,
    Jack Freedman

  • Master
    23 Feb 2010, 6:10 a.m.

    No need to apologize

    Hi Jack,

    You heading raised hopes another two examples had been found.

    The image above is a larger version of that posted by MF but an example is yet to be seen along with three unknowns.

    Cheers from the cellar

    www.gregsteer.net/IWC/CloisonneDials/Cloisonne_No_10.jpg

  • Master
    24 Feb 2010, 3 a.m.

    Additional research appears to indicate...

    IWC used 12 designs in its champleve enamel dials in the 1950s and 1960s. Eight designs have been identified so far. Four to go.
    The search continues...