White Dial Mark 11's --myth or rarity?

Hi Jimmy,
I was hoping for a better picture. :-) and I got it. :-))
The logo seems to be a fraction of a millimeter to the left, but everything else seems kosher, assuming the dial is made of soft iron.
Could it be a manufacturing deviation that escaped quality control? Or could it be a manufacturing deviation that did NOT escape quality control, but was deemed insignificant, and to be within acceptable parameters?
Let us keep in mind these watches were first and foremost a flight instrument, and functionality was the key word. Perfect symmetry of the manufacturer's logo, much as we love it today, was probably not a first priority. :-)

Jimmy, Tony: both the dials show T Swiss T which means a Schaffhausen redial, so nothing original about them.

I'm firmly in the camp with Adrian, Tony and Jimmy: the white dials are not MoD issue. If they were, might we expect to see JLC Mark 11s with a white dial too? The Mark 11 spec clearly called for black dials. The Mark 11s were not downgraded to a lesser spec, as far as I recall.
The white redialed Omega 6B/159s that ORT mentioned were not for astronavigation and not Mark 11s so no comparison there.

That's right Ross. I missed that.
Welcome to my dementia. Hi Bill. :-)

The white redialed Omega 6B/159s that ORT mentioned were not for astronavigation and not Mark 11s so no comparison there.[/QUOTE]

Ross...if you turn the artificial lights out (leaving a coloured light on) on the white dial Omega you'll find find plenty to compair with the International. Same can be said for the white Lemanias that the historians said never went on the subs (never wager a lot on that).

LOL. I forgot I said that. 8-).

Ross...if you turn the artificial lights out (leaving a coloured light on) on the white dial Omega you'll find find plenty to compair with the International. Same can be said for the white Lemanias that the historians said never went on the subs (never wager a lot on that). [/QUOTE]

Hi ORT,
Mark Twain said that "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect". Wise words, as majorities are frequently wrong.
Having said this, I will also say that the majority who consider the "white dial Mark 11" an after market modification, presented convincing evidence those dials are not, or can't be, by IWC or the RAF, while you just provide as "evidence" the white dials are authentic, that other brands also have white dials, or of circumstances when "experts" were wrong, also on other brands. You have not provided one single evidence that the "white dial Mark 11" is nothing but what it is - a fraud.
As far as I am concerned, the issue merits no further discussion.

Mark Twain said that "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect". Wise words, as majorities are frequently wrong.
Having said this, I will also say that the majority who consider the "white dial Mark 11" an after market modification, presented convincing evidence those dials are not, or can't be, by IWC or the RAF, while you just provide as "evidence" the white dials are authentic, that other brands also have white dials, or of circumstances when "experts" were wrong, also on other brands. You have not provided one single evidence that the "white dial Mark 11" is nothing but what it is - a fraud.
As far as I am concerned, the issue merits no further discussion.

With all due respect Clep i've witnessed your dial evaluations in this very thread and seeing that vintage watches cost monies i tend to lean heavilly on me own eyes. Anyone out there with enough experience to put thier own monies into a few thousand vintage wristwatches, or perhaps even half a thousand in the same sitting will know the dials in question were not painted in the mid 80;s.....without the use of magnification. It is'nt for me to provide evidence of anything, afterall if it's good enough for Andrew to keep stum with regard to what legends inside of Schaffhausen have to say about Gentas contributions... then keeping stum is the new dance.

You might find at least the black twin to the WD pic'd in a book from '83, but of course the second-hand dealer could have got his '84 dates wrong.

Have you anything at all to add to why the dials in question are coated?

I've often wondered if it was Briggsy-Wiggsy himself..some psuedo legitimate german.. else a forum member with a penchant for a touch of comedy.. who disclosed that after endeavouring to mimmic the British MOD to the ninth degree.... the auction buyer found at the bottom of his pile some original mod dials. Whoever it was .....for that little pearl i feel they surely deserve at least a DVD if not a matching baseball cap.

Hi Ross,
there´s nothing Pandora can´t come up with :-)

I have no explaination!

Regards Jimmy

Jimmy, it's not a Mark 11. Perhaps we should take the conversation to MWR or TZ-UK, it's getting a bit OT for here!

Ross

I know, but it´s got a white dial ;-)...which by rights, also shouldn´t be there!

He certainly was'nt shy of useing up old stock, our man Briggsy. Swiss made, crows feet and inca was'nt for him but true to form he'd always provide us with a black twin.

Be a darling Jimmy....flick a pic up of the white dial '53, not the Railmaster the 4 digit @ 6 trickster.

Drop the moniker 'Mk' from the International lots, different decade, different dance.

I hate to jump into a running debate at the last minute, but I will just add that I do own a white dialed Mk XI, and the one element that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is the aged appearance of the dial... While the photo posted by MF presents it as a rather pristine looking example, you would have a hard time believing that the dial on my watch is only 30 years old, given the patina and wear. The fitting of early pencil style hands also gives you pause... Could you believe that such a watch was sold as surplus without a dial but with the original hands installed? I fully believe that the Mk XIs as sold to the RAF fully conformed to the Mk XI spec. But as ORT and others have mentioned, the RAF has a long history of modifying watches, years after the fact, to suit their purposes. Whether these watches are 'authentic' seems a matter of semantics. But if the Omegas, Jaegers, etc. can be classified as authentic mil watches after they've been modified by the RAF, then why not the IWC? And if such a watch was re-purposed with a white dial, obviously its intended use would be different from the original astro navigational need, suggesting that other aspects of the watch such as the anti-magnetic qualities could have also been reconsidered. I appreciate that no record has been found of the RAF ordering white dials, but that doesn't prove that they didn't. After all, it could have been a single order of a limited quantity, and finding such a record would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. Mr. Dowling's recollection that he did find white dialed Mk XIs in his military surplus purchases seems rather more to the point anyway. Isn't seeing believing?
Kind regards,
Michael

It's not a gimme that the dial order was singular, much like the camera devices (possibly the reason for a split hand kit style??).

Mr. Kolesa...i seem to recall you trying to discover if the moniker 'Angl' referred to the British direction of these watches and being told it referred to specialist bridge finishing....did anybody anywhere in the whole wide world ever highlight where exactly the different finishing shown itself? Or was this some kind of myth, cockamamie caper?

Hi Catherine, good to see you around here. Maybe I should share an image of a loose white "Mark 11" dial which I acquired a few years ago (together with other mil issue watches and parts) from an ex-Herstmonceux watchmaker? These parts had been in his possession, untouched, since he left the Royal Observatory in the late 1960s...

Hello Ian,
I've a feeling your words wont really stand-up, they might if you became non-English and wrote a book or two.

Personally, I'd love to see an image of the dial and would be happy to post a photo of my watch to compare!

Michael

Think i've seen that silverxwhite pimpel finish ( fire gilt?) Before somewhere, bit naive & definitley outside of Switzerland but definitely not '80's german surplus dealer.

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126675517375?itmmeta=01J86CTDTASGRS65R7PSG62TCV&hash=item1d7e72ffbf:g:SfAAAOSwP3Vm5YpO